I-L: Thank you for addressing the issue of safety in the church and for discussing this issue with us at Ill-legalism.

Many of the people who come to our web site have experienced negative aspect of Christianity, particularly legalism with its focus on control and rules. In your view, what is legalism within Christianity and how does it make the church an unsafe place? 

H & W: Legalism could be seen as an aspect of verbal abuse. Or the abuse of the Name of God when one expresses truth or guidance. Rules are fine when they are structured in the best interests of people, when they have honor within them and when they are open for review. But when rules merely reflect the wishes or interpretation of one person’s view of the Bible, e.g. wearing hats, or not allowing women to speak in church, then it slips into legalism. In extreme cases, such legalism can be downright illegal, e.g. protecting leaders when they are sexually abusing members.

I-L: Do you, in the UK, see legalism as more of an American fundamentalist issue, or are the British experiencing similar issues with legalism “across the pond”? 

H & W: We wrote the book with a ‘mid-Atlantic’ feel, because we have the same problems as you do in the USA. Wherever you have people together, you have the possibility of abuse and legalism. In fact, sadly, no one denomination or even an independent congregation seems to be immune to the problem. However we would agree that American fundamentalism is particularly vulnerable to an exclusivist attitude. In UK the church is such a small proportion of the population that dogmatism has little influence.

I-L: What is “spiritual abuse” and how can it be avoided?

H & W: We take a whole section in the book on the issue of spiritual abuse. There seems to be a misunderstanding here, in that some assume that if abuse takes place in the church then it is spiritual. Our preference is to define it far more as abuse that is spiritually oriented, either by the use of the Name of God, or as part of pastoral care and spiritual guidance.

We take a great deal of time suggesting ways forward to both avoid it and to deal with it when it begins to occur. But the key is the attitude or feelings of the members, or other leaders. It is important that a consensus quickly builds that says ‘Stop!!’. ‘No more!!’ It is important people stand together in this and can speak about it openly.

I-L: You state in your book: “In any definition of abuse, it is important not to slip into the language of personal human rights.” (p. 43) How can the church address abuse without addressing personal rights, and why should it avoid this focus? 

H & W: We are suggesting that certain human rights are surrendered by the individual, when they commit to Christ and/or become members of a congregation. For instance, you become open to the Lord telling you to forgive when in fact you feel like you want to revenge the person. The Rule of Christ, to love one’s enemy also means surrendering certain of one’s rights, as we personally illustrate in the book. Generally as Christians we are called to place more emphasis on the rights of others than on the exercising of our own rights. However when we work with those who have been abused, our priority is first to see them healed and restored, just as Christ did, rather than on loving and serving others.

I-L: Those who have experienced an unsafe or abusive church often receive understanding from fellow Christians after the situation is over, but those currently experiencing this are suspect. In other words, Christians have a difficult time recognizing and/or addressing church abuse while it is happening, sometimes even contributing to people’s agony. How can Christians recognize and address current abuse?

H & W: The simple rule of thumb that we suggest in the book is that if it is wrong or unhelpful at work or in the home to do something, then it is wrong even if done in the Name or the apparent best interests of God. But we take it further in suggesting that the Church should be safer than, say, the marketplace or institution, because it follows the teaching of Christ regarding love, that such places do not have an interest or duty to meet or implement.

Our experience is that there are almost always some who recognize that a situation is abusive, whilst it is happening. However they are rarely encouraged to speak out, and even more rarely listened to. So one of the most useful things we can do is to take seriously any suggestion that something might be perceived as being abusive. If we would each promise together to speak out and act when we suspected something might be about to become abusive, there would be much less agony in the church.

I-L: Since church is a place for needy people, how do you suggest addressing issues such as transference or “collected hurt” as you put it (p.46)?

H & W: We all have baggage, hurt and sin in our lives, so none of us are safe all the time, or with everyone. So it is helpful to create support groups or structured environments where people can engage pain, trauma and its abuse. A place to declare and name the hurt – confess to others – so that we can be free from this from our past. If you do not build into community life such opportunities to engage hurt then it will come out in other less helpful ways, like anger against the leaders, walking off in a temper tantrum, or demanding revenge when such a pathway is not helpful for the wider community.

I-L: We are aware of situations where “lay counselors” became part of the problem, instead of helping a situation. What is your position on the need for trained counselors within the church and how can the church successfully monitor lay counseling?

H & W: Our experience is that trained counselors are not necessarily any better than those who are ‘experts by experience’. At the end of the day the person you are most likely to seek out to help you is the one who has successfully dealt with the issue in their own lives, not the one who is trained to talk about it. Christ avoided the professional leaders and chose lay people to train, so we also need to find a mature balance.

Objectivity or impartiality is the key mature response, as well as loyalty to Christ rather than loyalty to any one leader or group of leaders. Such maturity and skills that can help untangle and unearth abuse can be found in a range of people who may be business leaders or qualified professionals. They do not need to be trained counselors.

We would also avoid the notion of ‘counseling’. It suggests the responsibility lies with the ‘counselor’. We have found a mentoring or coaching model is more apt for the body of Christ. If I have a problem, the responsibility remains mine to resolve it, but a mentor or coach can support me as I sort it out. This tends to create a more balanced relationship and therefore less potential for abuse.

I-L: How do you suggest churches deal with abuse from its leaders, for example when someone is a deacon in the church but emotionally or verbally abusive at home?

H & W: As we suggest in the book, one needs to get both sides of the story, while being able to remain impartial ones self. Also, the senior leadership of the church needs to commit publicly to finding the truth and acting with integrity in their response. The congregation must be kept fully informed at all stages. Also, it is very important that a balance is found between exercising the power of forgiveness and discipline. But the leadership should be careful to consider the view of the members, as leadership often seems to be out of step with what the members of the church would expect or hope for.

I-L: Much of your book is focused on helping churches. If someone reading this has been in an abusive church, what are your suggestions to help bring about personal healing?

H & W: Our first comment would be that healing is possible – that is what God intends. God does not defend churches who abuse – He is on the side of the victim, the poor and the hurting. Sometimes a time out of church altogether is a helpful thing. Sometimes finding an alternative church that is particularly sensitive to the needs of the vulnerable can also be very helpful.

In our ministry we have a range of ways to help support people who want to resolve the damage of abuse in their lives. Get on our website and talk to our staff. We will be delighted to support you. We also have a virtual community through Facebook. For those who want to learn more about themselves and why they feel the way that they do, we have several books, Bible notes and CD’s that may be helpful, together with a range of workshops. At the end of the day, however, there is no substitute for love and listening ear. We would like to be that safe place for those who need help.

I-L: If we know of someone in a spiritually abusive church, but they go along with this unhealthy situation and resist change, how might we help them?

H & W: Talk to us, and if we can we will help. Also, everyone has the option of deciding whether this is a battle they should fight from within the congregation, or whether they should give themselves permission to just walk away. We have had this conversation with many over the years.

I-L: Recently we heard in the news that a new study concludes that it is good for children to receive some measure of bullying—that it makes them stronger. With all this talk of abuse, are we making people too sensitive? How do we avoid contributing to a “victim’s mentality” or as you state, an “over-sensitive syndrome”?

H & W: One of the accusations brought against the ‘emotional intelligence’ movement, and the drive for us all to be more psychologically aware, is that we can and probably are overdoing it. For instance, by suggesting that classroom and field sports competition is emotionally unhealthy! So yes, we do need to find a balance. But when it comes to abuse, we must always investigate and test it.

Personally we would not like churches to cease being the place where steel meets steel, and where church life only remains within our comfort zones. Jesus didn’t, so why should we feel we have the right to live quiet, smooth, boring and uneventful lives? God can be the bringer of chaos, when He speaks. There are times when His discipline feels like abuse – we must all be encouraged to keep on growing up. However – when someone has been deeply hurt, the first thing they need is to be loved, rather than be challenged!

I-L: You include an important chapter on blame and forgiveness. Explain what you mean by avoiding blame, and how stating forgiveness is not enough.

H & W: Yes, one of the distinctives of the Christian life should be the witness of the outworking of a forgiving no blame culture. Although all of us are held accountable for sin, and we all need to practice forgiveness, this must always we tempered with justice. Not the justice of the courts, but the feeling that justice has been done.

In our ministry we make a distinction between forgiving, and the next step – choosing to lay down a person’s right of revenge. That is, for their sakes and for the sake of those around them, the individual gives their right for justice to the Lord, leaves the person(s) with the Lord, and lets the whole matter go. They do not seek revenge, but instead choose to leave the right of revenge with the Lord to do as He wills with those involved. That allows them to get on with their lives and not become embittered. This will often be a deeply emotional step to take, as the person has the chance to let go of their anger and give it to Christ.

Also, within a church setting matters should be settled before litigation reaches the courts, and the church should not be shouting for ‘heads to roll’ as an act of justice. Mercy and judgment should mediate each other. In an age of litigation and everyone wanting their rights, the church should be an example of moral integrity, finding the correct balance between justice and mercy, and never quick to sue.

I-L: You make an important point that people today may view certain teachings in the church/Bible as unsafe such as the concept of dying to self. What are your suggestions to bridge the understanding gap?

H & W: Yes, dying to self can seem to suggest that we have no rights left at all, and should allow ourselves to be treated like dirt. This is not the case. Although Scripture is clear that we all need to know such brokenness in our lives, this should never be a place that strips us of all other rights. Far from it. 

The suggestion of Scripture is that we live as though we are “dead to the world and all its toys”, while also enjoying the here and now as a full citizen. We bridge the gap by being real, with both ourselves and with others. That is, righteously enjoying the delights and pleasures of the world God has created for us to enjoy, while in our hearts never possessing any of it. That is, continuing to have a light touch.

I-L: Along the same lines, many outside Christianity, such as atheists, see Christianity as outright abusive, from the focus on human sacrifice, the doctrine of hell, the rejection of gay rights, etc. What is your response?

H & W: Yes, I think that today most of us struggle with the graphic portrayal of a God who is a warrior, conquering and pillaging foreign lands and peoples. But this is real life, and the kind of fallen world that we are all part of. The balance is to be found in the person of Christ, who is the one perfect man, and our example. We are required to be His apprentices.

But what is not said, is how we do this. So every generation needs to find ways to respond to the critique of those outside the church. But we must never abandon the core truths of Scripture, and our duty to present these to the world. However, we need much wisdom when we speak of things like sin and hell. But this is the territory the Holy Spirit must take people in to. It is not our duty to create hell for them!

I-L: How does C. S. Lewis’ idea of Aslan not being a tame lion, or “He is not safe. He is good, but he is certainly not safe,” compare with church being a safe place?

H &W: Yes, we love this challenge, as we have found over the years that God is far more hard-handed and ruthless than we often are with people. In fact, we have found ourselves saying sorry to people for the way the Lord is clearly treating them! But is not this the privilege of Creator God? He does have that right, especially when the person has already said to the Lord that they want to know more about Him, and enter deeper intimacy with Him. It is the contradiction of Beowulf. He had a fearsome reputation as a ruthless warrior, but for the people in his village there was calm and a sense of safety because none would challenge him.

Peter R Holmes 

Susan B Williams

 http://www.lifegivingtrust.org/v1/index.php